Friday, March 14, 2008

Obama's Church Again: Pigmented Values?

Look at Obama's church's statement of "black values." What if you substituted "white" or "red" or "brown" for "black" in every case? Why not speak of "Christian values" or "biblical principles"? Is there a unique "black ethical system?" Are we not all humans made in God's image? Do not Christians have one Father, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, and so on? Hasn't Christ broken down the walls of hostility between classes, races, and gender (Galatians 3:28)? Are we not "members of one another"? Notice that his church allows only "black leaders."

Is this a man who can "unite" the country racially?

I was given this material by a mixed race, Christian couple (black and white), who are deeply disturbed about this racial ecclesiology.


The Daily Fuel said...

What if you substituted the adjective "heterosexual" for black, or red, or brown, or white? That is what goes on in many churches, including New Life Church in Colorado Springs, even while Ted Haggard was pastor. And all churches, except for the Episcopal Church, only allow heterosexual leaders. (One has to wonder if that is why John McCain left the Episcopal Church to become an unbaptized Baptist in recent years).

Douglas Groothuis, Ph.D. said...

There is no reductio here, Fab. Heterosexual monogamy is the biblical norm. See Genesis 2. It is the pattern of creation. This is a difference that makes a difference. I cannot give my full thinking on this here, though.

Homosexuals might be in church leadership if they are celibate and have leadership gifts. The homosexual actions are wrong; but one may have to live with the orientation if God does not heal him or her.

Moreover, your response doesn't respond to my concern: black values as separtistic.

The Daily Fuel said...

Understood that the good book sets the scriptural norm. It does not set the natural norm. That kind of dichotomy, between scripture and nature, is really irreconcilable in my mind and resolved, in my mind, in favor of the latter. (And please don't bring up criminals, like pedophiles, rapists, and serial murderers for example of what behavior that may have natural roots, but is already disallowed by law. There is a difference between homosexuality, between consenting adults, and criminal behavior).
In any case, the intent of my polemical example is to show that believers have value systems which are always not defensible rationally (unless you equate reason with literally believing every word of the bible, which seems to put believers on rather shaky rational ground on many issues.)

And speaking of separatism, Wilberforce and other paladins of the abolition of slavery aside, the bible has been used to justify slavery, or the superiority of Christians over other people, for centuries in the United States and around the world (it still is, by racist). And yet, I don't remember reading a single post on this blog condemning the use of scriptures in support of, for example, white separatism. So there is little doubt in my mind that your attack on the separatist values of Sen. Obama's church is politically motivated.

I am starting to suffer from Obama-attack fatigue, and I hope I am not the only one.

The Daily Fuel said...


"And yet, I don't remember reading a single post on this blog condemning the use of scriptures in support of, for example, white separatism."

I am not saying no one on this blog has ever written anything to decry the use of the bible in support of slavery of separatism. I am saying it never made a headline, unlike Obama's Church's pigmented values.

Douglas Groothuis, Ph.D. said...


We need to meet againt to talk this out!

I recommend The Politically Incorrect Guide to the Bible on how the Bible relates to slavery, science, government, etc. It is not documented fully enough, but makes some excellent points, which are documented elsewhere.

The Bible teaches that nature is fallen, effected in every dimension by sin. So, the fact that something happens does not justify it as the way of life and flourishing. Moreover, natural law arguments can be made against homosexuality.

There is ample evidence that the world is out of sync with the good, the true, and the beautiful (to use the Greek triad). The Bible explains why. Read Genesis 1-3 and Romans 1-3 on all this.

The Daily Fuel said...

I picked up a copy of Schaeffer's book that you recommended, and Expelled is coming out. So there's a number of things you and I have to discuss. :-)

Dorcas (aka SingingOwl) said...

"Black" values? On a church websitge? This is profoundly disturbing. Imagine a website that said we espouse "Feminist values" or "White values."

I'd run as fast as possible. I'm astounded at the audacity of this.