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A forum for discussing matters of moment, from a curmudgeonly perspective. (The ideas posted here do not necessarily represent those of any organization with which I am a part). Rude and insulting remarks will not be published, but civil disagreement is welcome.
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About Me
- Douglas Groothuis, Ph.D.
- Nothing on this blog represents the position of Denver Seminary. I am a Christian, philosopher, teacher, writer, and preacher, who is Professor of Philosophy at Denver Seminary. My most recent of my twelve books is Philosophy in Seven Sentences. My magnum opus is Christian Apologetics: A Comprehensive Case for Biblical Faith (InterVarsity Press, 2011). I have published ten others, including Truth Decay and On Jesus. I direct the Christian Apologetics and Ethics MA program at Denver Seminary.
23 comments:
Good one.
A great turn of words that communicates so much!
that's a great Quote!
Rebecca's comments help explain so much of postmodern glibness. Opinions are as good as truth, so why bother being serious about anything? "I know it because I know it--get over it," some think.
SO true!
Great quote, and entirely relevant to my personal experiences in Christian witness. It is frustrating to learn of people's perceptions of the Christian faith during such discussions.
Many unbelievers I have talked to speak as though they are authorities on the matter, citing references such as "The Da Vinci Code", the "Jesus Seminar", and Peter Jennings. When presented with the Truth about Christianity, it is sad to see that usually no effort is spent in pursuit of these claims... many folks that I talk to opt to return to the Tattered Cover to get their hands on the latest Elaine Pagels book, or a throwback copy of "Holy Blood Holy Grail".
Eagerly awaiting the next Tom Hanks blockbuster,
Craig
I asked students in my Intro to Philosophy class at Araphahoe Community class what their favorite book was. A distressing number answered, "The Da Vinci Code." Some in the class are teenagers! That is a new challenge for me.
Just because it's someone's favorite book doesn't mean they believe it's true. If my favorite book was The Odyssey, that wouldn't necessarily mean I believed Greek mythology was fact.
But it's interesting that is how you guys interpret those comments when people say they like The Da Vince Code.
Also, it's not like The Da Vinci Code or Holy Blood Holy Grail are terrible books. You may disagree with them, but they are entertaining. I find JKF an entertaining film even though most of the "facts" Olive Stone presents never really happened, either. There isn’t a huge entertainment difference between Da Vinci and JFK ...
One more thing, I have made this comment before, but Christianity isn't a fact. If it was, it wouldn't be called a religion. Saying Christianity is the “truth” is just as much as opinion as someone saying they believe every one of Dan Brown’s words.
And isn't Rebecca's comment just as glib as saying, "I know it because I know it -- get over it"? What's the difference? My guess is because you agree with the person. But if someone like Bill Maher made the "never have so many been so certain of so much about which they know so little" comment - I have a feeling you'd be saying that is the typical of the sound bite/glib media.
P.S.- Doug, thanks for the article on TV, I really enjoyed read it.
Bill:
Bill Mahr isn't that good. What Rebecca said hits him between the eyes. He pronounces on all kinds of things sans argument. Moreover, I have the context to know why Rebecca said it and to know it isn't glib.
Christianity is or is not factual: either/or. Determining its factuality is a matter of investigation. You seem to think that if something is disputed it cannot be factual. That doesn't follow. You confuse a fact with its being rationally established. In fact (!), there are many facts that no one knows (outside of God): 1. How many grains of sand exist in the world; 2. How many hairs are on my head; 3. How many times your heart beat in the last 7.67 years. And so on.
Best,
Doug
Doug:
You make my point. For all of us who don't know Rebecca, her statement is glib. Like I said, it's not glib to you because 1) you know her and the context 2) you agree with her. But if Bill Maher, or Chris Matthews, or any other media talking head made that same comment without any context, you'd be criticizing him and how he doesn't really know "the truth."
Better still, what if Rebecca's quote was the tagline for a new scholarly, well researched book against the Bible or Christianity, would you still feel the same? If you can say yes, then you can say her comment isn't glib.
Doug:
I am playing devil's advocate (no pun intended) a bit about this topic since 90% of your comments are people just agreeing with you; and it makes it more interesting to have a dissenting opinion.
Bill brings up a crucial point about the written word, particularly on the blogs. Without the context of personal relationship we tend to bring into the reading of a post our own emotional and intellectual milieu and it skews our comprehension. The best way to assess Rebecca's fine statement is to get to know her, and if that is not possible, one can become well-acquainted with the books she has authored. That would provide a much better means of evaluation than how a single quote "strikes you" at any given time or in any given context.
Bill:
Allow me to ask you something regarding a post of yours. You wrote:
"One more thing, I have made this comment before, but Christianity isn't a fact. Saying Christianity is the “truth” is just as much as opinion as someone saying they believe every one of Dan Brown’s words."
For purposes of clarity, let's bracket your whole above quoted words there and call that thing X.
Now, I ask you: Is X a fact?
If you claim to me that X is a fact, and I dispute you, will that then make X just an "opinion."? It would seem to me that your claim "Christianity is not a fact," sure sounds like you think it is a fact. But if I dispute you and claim that your statement "Christianity is not a fact" is not a fact, will that change the status of X's facthood? Will that then make it an opinion? If you claim that your claim X is not a fact, then I wonder why you said it.
It would seem that the matter of X's facthood is up for investigation, yes? Whether or not the statment "Christianity is not a fact" is a fact, would appear to be something that we would have to research.
Let me give you another example. A lot of people say things like, "Macro-evolution is not a fact." Well, their statement is making a clear truth claim (or fact claim). And that claim is one that we will need to research in order to know if the claim is a fact or not. Simply saying that it is an opinion doesn't change its facthood or non-facthood. It either is or it is not a fact. Our job is to figure that out.
What is incredible about Christianity is that its claims are historical, factual claims. That is, evidence can be brought for or against them. The claims of Christianity are verifiable or falsifiable. The same cannot be said of many other religions that make claims of a such a nature that no evidence could ever refute them or confirm them even in principle.
Here's a claim for you:
The human who walked the earth a couple thousand years ago from Nazereth named Jesus was killed and then three days later he rose from the dead.
That's a claim that is either a fact or it is not. If it is a fact, then I would go on to assert that the broad body of beliefs generally considered to constitute Christianity are also facts (that is, they are true). If the claim about Jesus's ressurection is not true (that is, not a fact) then I would assert that Christianity is also not true (not a fact).
I'm also willing to bet that in all other areas of your life outside of religion you live in such a way that things are either true or they are not true (regardless of whether you know, at the moment, or will ever know, if they are true or not). So why should the claims of religion be any different?
They shouldn't.
That's a lot to respond to, so I'll just touch on the part about my life.
Absolutely not do I look at things to be simply true or untrue. I realize that most things in life lay the grey, not the black and white. There are far more things I don't know, then I know. I am not cocky claim anything other than that. And as I get smarter, wiser; and we as humans learn more and more - I change. I would hope you do, too.
That is the beauty of science. It presumes to know nothing (I am simplifying , but you get my drift). Science looks for the best explanation possible, and when a new one is found, it moves on from there, until the picture gets clearer and clearer (again, simplifying but I am sure you understand the scientific method). Two thousand years ago, Christians claimed the world was flat and the Earth was the center of the Universe. So what happened to Galileo? He was deemed a heretic because his scientific views were different than what the Bible claimed. Those Christians knew the “truth” and had their “opinions” too.
Science doesn’t have to take a hard stance about knowing the truth about anything, because the truth changes over time. Christianity doesn’t really allow that sort of evolution (pun intended). You stated that if we could historically prove Jesus died and rose from the dead, that would mean Christianity was mostly true. Science would never make that kind of jump. Just because we can prove one species evolved, doesn’t mean they/we all did. See the difference? Science doesn’t allow one thing to prove all others.
More importantly, if somehow tomorrow Christianity could be proved through the scientific method, science would embrace what was claimed in the Bible and Christianity. And that is one of the things that makes science great; it allows for new evidence, opinions and truths. Yet if tomorrow somehow science disproved Christianity, you guys would never support science.
So no, in my own life I do not look at everything to be either true or untrue. To me, that’s a pretty narrow way to view an ever-changing world. But that’s just me.
Are all aphorisms glib? No! Her statement is true and rational, not glib.
Not glib, and it so perfectly catches the spirit of so many who argue for things they know little about -- including many apologists who use the device against giving good information about sex to kids, against evolution and other science, in support of politicians who act contrary to their supporters' interests, etc.
It's a warning to all of us. As Will Rogers observed, "It's not what we don't know that gets us into trouble; it's what we know that ain't true."
While we cannot empirically PROVE the truth claims of Christianity, we can certainly scrutinize and investigate them using the same criteria that we use to validate (or invalidate) other claims in history. To say that knowledge (justifiable true belief) is limited to the hard sciences is to rule out by default that we can know anything about a set of "religious" beliefs. The reason why I wrote of Christianity as being "The Truth" in an earlier post, is because after extensive scrutiny and study of its' truth claims (initially aimed at disproving them by the way), I have come to the conclusion that it is HIGHLY likely that these claims are in fact objectively true. Sure, this has profound metaphysical implications, but that doesn't rule it out of the "pool of possibilities" just because some may not like it to be true (a preference or opinion).
For example, if you are willing to examine the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus... you will find that it makes a lot more sense to believe that what the New Testament texts are in fact true, than to believe what is written in say, "The Da Vinci" code. This includes a study on the historical validity of the New Testament texts themselves, and a study on extrabiblical references. Again, using the same criteria that we use to discern the claims of other ancient texts, you’ll find that the NT (and MANY other extrabiblical sources) not only stand up to these criteria, but they come out looking like shining stars. Or, if you just look at the empirical evidence for "a god", you'll find, if you're willing to even consider it (willing being they key here) that it makes much more sense, and requires a lot LESS faith, to in fact believe that there is a real, living God that created the universe and everything in it, intentionally.
Sadly, most are not willing to devote the energy into such an investigation, so therefore they will never know The Truth. I suspect that this reluctance is due to misconceptions about Christianity (wrong answers to the question “what IS Christianity?”), coupled with a fear that Christianity might actually be true, so therefore it would “cramp my style”.
Doug cited Os Guinness earlier: “Christianity isn’t true because it works, it works because it’s true”.
Moreover, limiting knowledge to the hard sciences proves Rebecca’s point! Science does not exist in a vacuum but is rather built upon and conducted along certain philosophical presuppositions (as John noted). Additionally “the conclusions of science cannot be more certain than the presuppositions it rests on ands uses to reach those conclusions” (Philosophy Made Slightly Less Difficult p. 136).
It is a bit naïve to assume that science is about black and white facts. Rather scientists must interpret the facts against a background of data that can be quite cloudy. This does not begin to exhaust the uncertainty related to the interference of the measurement device in the experiment or the insufficiency of the measurement device to capture all of the relevant data. The scientist must also exercise judgment in choosing a theory or line of pursuit. It is also expected that the scientist will honestly present results for peers to review. Does anyone want to argue that the awarding of federal grants for scientific research is void of politics?
Yes, science continues to shed additional light on our physical universe (Bill – truth does not change), but its underpinnings of philosophical naturalism that exist today limit science from pursuing truth wherever it may lead. Finally, the truth that science may unveil indeed has its limitations as Pascal notes “Knowledge of the physical science will not console me for ignorance of morality in time of affliction, but knowledge of morality will always console me for ignorance of physical science” (23/67).
Nancy:
I agree. Good chops. Start that blog!
DRG
The rejection of naturalism as a method to know God's creation is, in my experience, a mental disease. Certainly, where one has a choice of measurement methods, one method may work better than another.
But where we use the same measures, it is not really accurate to say that a choice of using a hard scientific measure is a philosophical choice. If the butcher tilts the scales with his thumb, surely it is a moral matter. But if the butcher gives good weight, then it is a distortion of reality to say that what is weighed may not be what the scales say.
It is a moral issue, it seems to me, to urge that we should disbelieve accurate measures.
The sunlight is warm; claims that it is cold should be rejected. Water is wet; claims to the contrary are attempts to mislead us. The Earth is what it is, often directly from the Creator's hand -- to deny that it manifests what it manifests is ultimately a denial of the creation, and of the Creator.
Listen to Mr. Stockwell. He puts in more techinical terms what Will Rogers warned us against. Rejecting an interpretation of facts is one thing; rejecting the facts themselves is quite another. We may not like the facts we get. That is not justification for rejecting them.
John, I think we would concur that despite the current imperfections in the contemporary conduct of science, we do generally gain greater and greater knowledge about the physical world. Like Pascal said in his “Preface to the Treatise on the Vacuum”, “Truth should always have the advantage, even when newly discovered, since it is always older than every opinion men have held about it.”
With regards to Phillip Johnson, I have not read his work in many years. But lest Rebecca’s aphorism be posted to my hind side I’ll defer to the professional philosophers DeWeese and Moreland. “Science presupposes methodological naturalism but not philosophical naturalism, and the two should not be confused” (Philosophy Made Slightly Less Difficult, p. 145) I stand corrected in my above post when I confused these two terms. DeWeese and Moreland distinguish empirical science and historical science. Though methodological naturalism is proper in the study of the natural world, it is insufficient in the historical sciences, such as archaeology and forensic science, in which the intent and motives of an intelligent agent must be discerned. With regards to the ID debate. DeWeese and Moreland note that though some make the “philosophical claim that ID theory isn’t even science in the first place. It is this philosophical claim that we reject. The inadequacy of methodological naturalism and the genuine scientific nature of ID theory are widely acknowledge by philosophers of science, even among those who are atheists and who believe ID theory is actually false” (ibid, 146). So it seems unfair to pin this all on the musings of a slick lawyer.
Ed, to clarify my view, I do not discount that rigorous science provides us with facts about the world in which we live. I’ve spent the last 15 years, of my professional career, assisting scientist and engineers in the collection, analysis, and presentation of data from laboratory experiments. I thoroughly enjoy learning more about the world through the interaction with my clients. I have learned that the “facts” can be cloudy at times and even when they are not cloudy, conclusions may not be justified by the facts. When I speak of facts that may be cloudy I am not discounting the obvious experience that the sun is warm. However, the art of accurately measuring physical phenomena in the laboratory, even something as basic as temperature, is not always as simple as going outside and reading a thermometer.
John, your caricature of ID as a group of individuals attempting to impose a young-earth, global flood view on the rest of the world completely misrepresents the views, intent and aim of ID as proposed by the theorists. I’m sure that you are aware that many who hold to the ID theory believe the earth is old and the flood was limited.
Proponents of ID merely state that purposeless, non-intelligent and chance causes cannot adequately explain the origins of life. Some ID theorists (if memory serves me correctly) would even adhere to a common ancestor for most if not all of life. That some followers of ID would have grander ambitions does not discredit the goals and intents of those who have worked to develop the theory and those who have endeavored to accurately understand it.
ID does not want to eliminate natural causes from the purview of science, but rather very carefully, and in limited cases, augment naturalism with the purpose of an intelligent designer at work in the world. For instance, where methodological naturalism may limit scientific investigation of accidents of nature such as vestigial parts or junk DNA, the ID theorist would say “Hm…that can’t just be a random mistake of chance and necessity, there must be some purpose for that thing, lest go investigate the thing and discover its purpose.” ID does not limit science but expands it.
Many may disagree with ID theory, but affirm that it has earned a seat at the table. As Dr. Philip Skell (member of the National Academy of Science and prof of Chemistry at Penn State) said in an open letter to the South Caroline Education Oversight Committee, “Intellectual freedom is fundamental to the scientific method.” Not only does Dr Skell expose the philosophical underpinnings of neo-Darwinism in his letter, but he suggests that education on the origins of life should not be limited to evolutionary theory, but should also include the valid criticisms of the theory.
Phil Skell is not "many."
Heck, even the big money IDists at the Discovery Institute say that ID hasn't earned a spot at any science table.
What is it with philosophers who want to wonder about what could be if, but then forget that "if" hasn't happened?
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