tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14410967.post7631161258998997620..comments2024-03-25T19:00:40.046-06:00Comments on The Constructive Curmudgeon: Media Promiscuity and Idiocy: Making the Massacre Maker a CelebrityDouglas Groothuis, Ph.D.http://www.blogger.com/profile/08766692378954258034noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14410967.post-18348085534779217122007-04-25T22:02:00.000-06:002007-04-25T22:02:00.000-06:00And I left out 90% of hip hop, which is nihilistic...And I left out 90% of hip hop, which is nihilistic, and viciously so.Douglas Groothuis, Ph.D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/08766692378954258034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14410967.post-40264193212532137482007-04-25T21:58:00.000-06:002007-04-25T21:58:00.000-06:00Who is saying, "Not my job?" Not me, for one. My j...Who is saying, "Not my job?" Not me, for one. My job is to defend, commend, and live out Christian truth with all my might. That I endeavor do (however imperfectly).<BR/><BR/>There are plenty of nihilists. Have you ever heard of punk rock? Have you ever read Max Stirner? Have you witnessed so much of modern "art"? Have you read Jean Baudrillard (or tried to)? Have you ever seen "Eracer Head"? (Don't, please.) Have you ever heard of Frank Zappa? However brilliant he was as a composer and clever (although often obscene), he was a nihilist. <BR/><BR/>Nihilism is no fiction, but is all too real, "under the son."Douglas Groothuis, Ph.D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/08766692378954258034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14410967.post-21547629274088129002007-04-25T14:49:00.000-06:002007-04-25T14:49:00.000-06:00Dr. Groothuis, are you saying you have knowledge t...Dr. Groothuis, are you saying you have knowledge that neither of the Columbine shooters had accepted Jesus? I don't. <BR/><BR/>In any case, they did attend Christian churches. Christians had the shot to dissuade them, and failed. Neither of them attended atheist sessions, neither of them (contrary to claims) studied biology and Darwinism. <BR/><BR/>My point was, simply, that we as Christians had a chance, and blew it. It's a missed opportunity. It's not the fault of nihilists (whoever they may be -- are there any, really?) that these kids went wrong. There was no group of nihilists trying to persuade these kids to dark action.<BR/><BR/>Christians had 'em, and let them slip through the fingers. How many more?<BR/><BR/>It's easy to say "not my job." But it is, after all, part of the charge Jesus gave us, isn't it?Ed Darrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10056539160596825210noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14410967.post-48558153222593361492007-04-25T10:31:00.000-06:002007-04-25T10:31:00.000-06:00Paul D. Adams wrote:Again, this assumes that more ...<I> Paul D. Adams wrote:<BR/>Again, this assumes that more information has sufficient causal connection between knowing and doing. <BR/></I><BR/><BR/>No. It assumes that mass shooters have characteristics in common that are identifiable.<BR/><BR/><I> Paul D. Adams wrote:<BR/>To paraphrase Alexander Solzhenitsyn, the line drawn between good and evil is not between "us" versus "them." The line drawn between good and evil runs right through EVERY human heart.<BR/></I><BR/><BR/>Good? Evil? We are talking about a particular type of behavior that could just as easily be characterized as "sick" as opposed to "well", or "dangerous" versus "benign".John Stockwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03496308585336775569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14410967.post-70973532578939009672007-04-24T16:39:00.000-06:002007-04-24T16:39:00.000-06:00Stockwell says: I believe that the misguided desir...Stockwell says: <BR/><I>I believe that the misguided desire for less information springs from a personal belief that "it can't happen here".</I><BR/><BR/>Again, this assumes that more information has sufficient causal connection between knowing and doing. Blind naivety is one thing, but that is not what I'm addressing here. On the one hand it is foolish to think that "it can't happen here." On the other, it can happen anywhere. To paraphrase Alexander Solzhenitsyn, the line drawn between good and evil is not between "us" versus "them." The line drawn between good and evil runs right through EVERY human heart.Paul D. Adamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18213551311029058377noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14410967.post-28647733146302398082007-04-24T12:22:00.000-06:002007-04-24T12:22:00.000-06:00Paul D. Adams wrote:John,Granted, paying heed to w...<I> Paul D. Adams wrote:<BR/>John,<BR/>Granted, paying heed to warning signs is important. Thanks for the clarification. I think the gist of this thread, however, is the over-reporting and media hype of the MM killer. Exactly how many of the details of this heinous act are sufficient for us (the public) to know? Far fewer than we're given, I suspect. <BR/></I><BR/><BR/>I would suggest that we need to know <I>more</I>. We need to know the potentially revealing offhand comments, the history of their behavior, and the history of their interaction with others that could be useful in identifying this pathological behavior.<BR/><BR/>The media is simply doing its job, whether that is for sensationalistic purposes or not. <BR/><BR/>I believe that the misguided desire for less information springs from a personal belief that "it can't happen here".John Stockwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03496308585336775569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14410967.post-36575607646971116372007-04-24T06:52:00.000-06:002007-04-24T06:52:00.000-06:00John,Granted, paying heed to warning signs is impo...John,<BR/>Granted, paying heed to warning signs is important. Thanks for the clarification. I think the gist of this thread, however, is the over-reporting and media hype of the MM killer. Exactly how many of the details of this heinous act are sufficient for us (the public) to know? Far fewer than we're given, I suspect. The media seems to presuppose that a) any/everything should be reported <I>in toto, ad nauseum</I> (just look at the reporting on the identity of Anna Nicole Smith's baby's father!) b) the entire public has a right to know everything. I disagree with both of these premises.Paul D. Adamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18213551311029058377noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14410967.post-6720638115008295122007-04-23T14:56:00.000-06:002007-04-23T14:56:00.000-06:00Correction. That was Paul D. Adams whose post I w...Correction. That was Paul D. <I> Adams</I> whose post I was replying to. Senior moment.John Stockwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03496308585336775569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14410967.post-44185806523368419862007-04-23T14:55:00.000-06:002007-04-23T14:55:00.000-06:00Paul D. Williams wrote:"get it all out there so th...<I><BR/>Paul D. Williams wrote:<BR/><BR/>"get it all out there so that people can be forewarned. Hiding your head in the sand is not going to fix the problem."<BR/><BR/>This assumes that knowing affects doing. I'm unconvinced that, contra Socrates via Plato, that knowledge is power. James indicates that knowing the right things does not translate into doing the right things (James 4:17). Exactly how does raising our awareness of evil keep us from committing evil?<BR/></I><BR/><BR/>The head-in-the-sand-community assumes that knowing influences doing. That somehow seeing details of a killers thought processes is contagious and will immediately ignite more of these events by those who were not previously inclined. Now, certainly there will be additional copycat events. This is true of many types of pathological behavior. That goes with the territory.<BR/><BR/>My point is that if a tiger kills a man, and people know what a tiger looks like and the shape of its tracks, then they might have a chance to defend against the tiger.<BR/><BR/>Yes, knowledge and the lack of it is power, and the individual who shoots up a public place <I> depends </I> on his targets not having the knowledge to recognize to him.John Stockwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03496308585336775569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14410967.post-6541313088021330152007-04-22T23:01:00.000-06:002007-04-22T23:01:00.000-06:00Ed:Even Hitler attended mass. He was a Roman Catho...Ed:<BR/><BR/>Even Hitler attended mass. He was a Roman Catholic and allegedly wrote in 'Mein Kampf' that his fight against the jews was' the work of the Lord'. It's a non-argument.<BR/><BR/>Christianity cannot be blamed for the wrongdoings of those who profess allegiance to it while their actions are blatantly anti-Christian.<BR/><BR/>Christianity already has enough problems.Yossmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16536162779634467220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14410967.post-75664479649791206132007-04-22T14:26:00.000-06:002007-04-22T14:26:00.000-06:00Attending a church doesn't make you a Christian an...Attending a church doesn't make you a Christian anymore than attending a gym makes you an athlete. One must repent, believe, convert, be born again of the Spirit (John 3, etc.).Douglas Groothuis, Ph.D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/08766692378954258034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14410967.post-32640587562436688662007-04-22T13:47:00.000-06:002007-04-22T13:47:00.000-06:00Yossman, Harris was Catholic, Klebold attended a L...Yossman, Harris was Catholic, Klebold attended a Lutheran church.Ed Darrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10056539160596825210noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14410967.post-81828122054204965702007-04-22T10:01:00.000-06:002007-04-22T10:01:00.000-06:00Responding to the comment on all shooters includin...Responding to the comment on all shooters including Columbine with some connection to Christianity: This is not true. Columbine was a very evangelized high school, and there was much persecution of non-Christians (see: No Easy Answers, The Truth Behind Death at Columbine, a book by an exfriend of the shooters, Brooks Brown, also my book, Scapegoating for Columbine). In fact, Rachel Scott was probably targeted because of her proselytism/criticism of the shooters. One of the shooters' mom was Jewish, and he felt the need to deny this at Columbine by making Heil Hitler jokes, very sad. These boys were not mentally ill like the VT shooter, but they became psychotic after years of abuse.<BR/>Persecution of course does not justify killing, I am just saying that it is not Christianity per se contributing to shooter motivation, but Christians behaving very badly can contribute to poor school culture and bullying.louisehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04529250836667967993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14410967.post-48665189910849028852007-04-22T07:24:00.000-06:002007-04-22T07:24:00.000-06:00Douglas:Well, that statement about Europe needs to...Douglas:<BR/><BR/>Well, that statement about Europe needs to be nuanced. There was a school massacre in Germany a few years ago with 23 dead. The MM was either a student or ex-student. There has been a lot of violence too last summer in the Paris suburbs.<BR/><BR/>Ultimately it is not the gun laws but the underlying worldview and its associated problems that give rise to these outbursts of violence. Yes, gun laws keep things from getting out of control like it does in the US. But the problem occurs here too, albeit on a different level.<BR/><BR/>We have a phenomenon that we in Holland call 'meaningless violence'. It is any act of violence that is not criminally, racially or religiously motivated or drugs related. It started in the early 80s when a Surinam boy was kicked to death by skinheads. It was considered a racial attack. The boy, Kevin Duynmeyer, got a statue in commemoration of his untimely death. Since Kevin a good number of people have been beaten to death for no apparent reason.<BR/><BR/>It is symptomatic of a society that glorifies violence and is not able to raise up a generation that has respect for life. Our humanistic societies are reaping the results of a morality that is not grounded in the supernatural (and thus unchangeable).<BR/><BR/>In short: we have the problem too.Yossmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16536162779634467220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14410967.post-71090530862292413772007-04-21T23:42:00.000-06:002007-04-21T23:42:00.000-06:00Yossman:That is exactly right. And you Europeans d...Yossman:<BR/><BR/>That is exactly right. And you Europeans don't see Europeans doing this kind of thing to each other. I think your gun laws have something to do with it.Douglas Groothuis, Ph.D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/08766692378954258034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14410967.post-24838805048317485662007-04-21T22:49:00.000-06:002007-04-21T22:49:00.000-06:00Ed:If I'm correct, the Columbine shooters were ant...Ed:<BR/><BR/>If I'm correct, the Columbine shooters were anti-Christians (a connection with Christianity in some way). They certainly acted out of hatred toward Christians and not out of some deranged devotion.<BR/><BR/>MM may not have read Nietzche, but acted in accordance with nihilistic thinking. So many people live out the consequences of a philosophy without having a clue as to which philosophy they adhere to.<BR/><BR/>There is more than nihilism at play here. It is an infatuation and fascination with violence inherent in Western culture.Yossmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16536162779634467220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14410967.post-17820667915116164262007-04-21T18:50:00.000-06:002007-04-21T18:50:00.000-06:00I blame MM. And I introspect.I blame MM. And I introspect.Douglas Groothuis, Ph.D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/08766692378954258034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14410967.post-58606246904216722462007-04-21T18:11:00.000-06:002007-04-21T18:11:00.000-06:00Agreed that Christianity shouldn't get the blame. ...Agreed that Christianity shouldn't get the blame. <BR/><BR/>Nor should we duck any responsibility, or just evidence of non-performance. I've seen a lot of stuff blamed -- Dinesh D'Souza even went over the top and claimed he didn't see any atheists among the mourners, and tried to pass it off there.<BR/><BR/>All I'm saying is that each shooter was affiliated with Christianity. As a faith, we failed, in each case. A bit more introspection, rather than attempts to blame others, might produce real results.Ed Darrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10056539160596825210noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14410967.post-80559131064117269882007-04-21T15:30:00.000-06:002007-04-21T15:30:00.000-06:00Ed:I wish some Christians had successfully reached...Ed:<BR/><BR/>I wish some Christians had successfully reached out to MM. Perhaps they tried. I do not know.<BR/><BR/>Christians should associate with the outcasts, the lonely the least, the last, the lost. There is no question about that.<BR/><BR/>But you cannot blaim this carnage on Christianity.Douglas Groothuis, Ph.D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/08766692378954258034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14410967.post-10420365978205334532007-04-21T13:54:00.000-06:002007-04-21T13:54:00.000-06:00Nihilism? This shooter thought he was doing the w...Nihilism? This shooter thought he was doing the work of Jesus.<BR/><BR/>One of the sad things we Christians need to face is the fact that of the shooters in these incidents over the past decade or so, all have had connections to Christian churches. They may have been hopeless, and wrong, but they were not carrying out a philosophical bent they got from reading Nietzche, nor from anyone else.<BR/><BR/>We had a chance to love the anger and hurt out of them, and we failed.<BR/><BR/>Showing the video can be questioned; it can't be questioned on the basis of nihilism. <BR/><BR/>Meanwhile, the parents of the victims of Columbine complain that the details of that shooting are being withheld. <BR/><BR/>It's a disaster. Media can't win when people are so prone to shoot messengers and plug their ears at the message.<BR/><BR/>And yet media keep trying. What faith!Ed Darrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10056539160596825210noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14410967.post-15349088424923415282007-04-21T09:05:00.000-06:002007-04-21T09:05:00.000-06:00"get it all out there so that people can be forewa..."get it all out there so that people can be forewarned. Hiding your head in the sand is not going to fix the problem."<BR/><BR/>This assumes that knowing affects doing. I'm unconvinced that, contra Socrates via Plato, that knowledge is power. James indicates that knowing the right things does not translate into doing the right things (James 4:17). Exactly how does raising our awareness of evil keep us from committing evil? There are countless historical examples and sociological studies done showing that knowledge, though necessary, is not sufficient to evoke decency or civility. Take, for example, studies done in the late sixties by some social psychologists who introduced African history into the curricula of an all-white, very prejudiced 6th-grade class. After several years of heavy doses in "black history" (as it was known), the same students were surveyed to measure the degree of change in prejudice based upon knowledge of African Americans. The results? Virtually no change in prejudice.<BR/>While there is a correlation between knowing and doing, I suggest you re-think what that relationship is in light of history and Scripture.Paul D. Adamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18213551311029058377noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14410967.post-62672780660983709882007-04-20T16:36:00.000-06:002007-04-20T16:36:00.000-06:00I disagree, John. I think these killers want fame...I disagree, John. I think these killers want fame, and they know that going out in a blaze of glory will get them fame, even if they aren't around to enjoy it. I don't deny that what you are arguing may also be the case; I just don't think the two are mutually exclusive.<BR/><BR/>Also, I do not want to see his video, or listen to the gunshots, or read his demented play. I'm not hiding my head in the sand; I know exactly what he did on that campus. I don't need to see it firsthand to know. We can talk about and learn from the event without sensationalizing it. This, I believe, is the point Dr. G and others are trying to make.Jonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13533252542115553519noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14410967.post-38900089868039623762007-04-20T16:02:00.000-06:002007-04-20T16:02:00.000-06:00I disagree thoroughly. This whole "hide it" mental...I disagree thoroughly. This whole "hide it" mentality that you are espousing keeps the problem from being thoroughly examined. I don't believe that these types of killers are seeking fame. Why? Because they don't hang around to enjoy it. (This is in contrast to the BTK killer, for example, who essentially turned himself after two decades of silence. You don't think he let himself be caught out of some sense of remorse, do you?)<BR/><BR/>We are talking about individuals who view themselves as being powerless, and pick targets that they believe are the people making them powerless. They attack in places where they will not meet any resistance. Finally, they kill themselves to deny the survivors/families/society the satisfaction of bringing them to justice.<BR/><BR/>Just as in the case of the Columbine killers, there were warning signs well before the attacks occurred.<BR/><BR/>And just as in the case of every other pathology that has come to light in recent years, incest, child abuse, what have you, getting the information out to the public is more important than kowtowing to the fear that some peoples' delicate sensibilities are going to get offended.<BR/><BR/>So no, I say we should get it all out there so that people can be forwarned. Hiding your head in the sand is not going to fix the problem.John Stockwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03496308585336775569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14410967.post-85816448880675911982007-04-20T12:20:00.000-06:002007-04-20T12:20:00.000-06:00It's all about making money and not about making a...It's all about making money and not about making a good quality product. The idiotic lust for higher ratings and thus higher advertising revenues drives the media to utter inferiority and immorality:<BR/><BR/>(1) CNN's notorious realtime non-news reporting (did you see the cellphone video with ... er... nothing on it being played over and over again?), <BR/><BR/>(2) The Dutch media's hypocrisy in covering the moral indignation caused by the NBC airing of MM's package and thus finding a reason for showing the package themselves.<BR/><BR/>(3) A total lack of respect for those who are grieving.<BR/><BR/>(4) Clearing the path for MM wannabees.<BR/><BR/>Antipathy is indeed too light a term.Yossmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16536162779634467220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14410967.post-24670348586014600252007-04-20T12:17:00.000-06:002007-04-20T12:17:00.000-06:00I recently read Cornelius Plantinga's book "Not th...I recently read Cornelius Plantinga's book "Not the way it's Supposed to be: A Breviary of Sin" and one of his more powerful adages dealt with the idea of "spiritual hygiene". This kind of person "longs for other human beings: she want to love them and to be loved by them. She hungers for social justice. She longs for nature, for its beautities and graces, for the sheer particularly of the way of a squirrel with a nut. As we might expect, her longings dim from season to season. When they do, she longs to long again…She keeps promises. She weeps with those who weep and, perhaps more impressively, rejoices with those who rejoice…a spiritually sound person disciplines her life by such spiritual exercises as prayer, fasting, confession, worship, and reflective walks through cememtreries. She visits boring persons and tries to take an interest in them, ponders the lives of saints and compares them to her own, spends time and money on just and charitable causes…”<BR/><BR/>Thanks Dr. Groothuis for your challenging words and the call to confront such an evil as nihilism.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09698873154989676726noreply@blogger.com