tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14410967.post115359159908737944..comments2024-03-25T19:00:40.046-06:00Comments on The Constructive Curmudgeon: Carl Jung: BewareDouglas Groothuis, Ph.D.http://www.blogger.com/profile/08766692378954258034noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14410967.post-56534835695598998202010-10-23T12:58:33.698-06:002010-10-23T12:58:33.698-06:00I like Chesterton's notion that Christianity i...I like Chesterton's notion that Christianity is a myth, but it is the "only true myth." This makes Jung a little less worrisome. There are archetypes, but the truest, most transcendent archetype is the Christ-figure.<br /><br />There is an anima/animus, but the most satisfying is the Holy Spirit (or, in Jewish mystic traditions, the Shekinah).<br /><br />A a teacher of psychology, lit, and philosophy, I don't wee my job as to "challenge" these minds, but to show how great Christ can look through the languages of the world (cf St Paul's interactions with the Athenians).<br /><br />I love the idea of the Christian curmudgeon--the body is truly a whole body!M + Vhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17954901036499058432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14410967.post-77218380894105738742010-02-20T14:20:53.872-07:002010-02-20T14:20:53.872-07:00.
I quoted and linked this article at my post abo....<br /><br />I quoted and linked this article at my post about New Agism and the emerging church:<br /><br />http://theconstructivecurmudgeon.blogspot.com/2006/07/carl-jung-beware.html<br /><br />.Papa Giorgiohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14046222162630611579noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14410967.post-71632363400117345632009-12-02T08:35:28.347-07:002009-12-02T08:35:28.347-07:00Good to see thoughtful comments posted by folks wh...Good to see thoughtful comments posted by folks who actually have read (and understood) Jung. It's easy to jump on Noll's "sect" bandwagon if you see Jung's ideas as pagan threats to Christianity.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04293262833196656411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14410967.post-32148236197412463102008-08-26T09:53:00.000-06:002008-08-26T09:53:00.000-06:00To add to the above...Re the issue of an objective...To add to the above...<BR/><BR/>Re the issue of an objective element to Jung's psychology...<BR/><BR/>If you read closely his theories of the Archetypes and their presence in the Unconscious/Collective Unconscious you will find that the objectivity lies there. In other words, our relationship to the Archtypes defines everything. Thus things are NOT subjective as the human race shares an OBJECTIVE reservoir of images which energise it and in relation to which it works itself out.<BR/><BR/>Now, if you read Jung's introduction to PSYCHOLOGY AND ALCHEMY, you will find him asking the question of where these Archetypes come from. He states that, as a psychologist, he is not qualified to say, but the implication is that they come from God - if we define God as a universal experience/energy available to all. Remember that Jung compared the Collective Unconscious to the Anima Mundi of the West and the Atman of the East - the World Soul. As anyone who knows their theology will be aware, in all these Cosmologies the World Soul/Atman/Adam Kadmon, is made in the image of God - it IS the Imago Dei and thus irrevocably linked to God...<BR/><BR/>Besides which, God is a primary element in almost every single word Jung said. Man's relationship to God, however one defines it, which he felt WAS personal to everyone, was a key issue in his psychology... <BR/><BR/>Again, I simply don't see how he can be accused of being anti-God in this context...<BR/><BR/>Yes, Jung had a syncretic/ ecumenical/ universal view of spirituality and so saw figures such as Christ, Krishna, Buddha etc as expressions or Avatars of God/the Psyche, but he held Christ to be the highest - possibly along with Buddha...<BR/><BR/>I can see how one could call him anti-Christian in the sense of anti-Church Dogma or Interpretation, but I cannot see how you could call him anti-Christ.Pegasushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12122356371487253798noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14410967.post-45747111765249911232008-08-26T09:30:00.000-06:002008-08-26T09:30:00.000-06:00On the issue of 'the God within', can I just ask w...On the issue of 'the God within', can I just ask what people think Christ meant when he said:<BR/><BR/>"The Kingdom of God is within you"?<BR/><BR/>Or what Paul meant when he said:<BR/><BR/>"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwelleth within you?"<BR/><BR/>and<BR/><BR/>"...I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God: even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: to whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is the Christ in you, the hope of glory..."<BR/><BR/>And in fact the Bible is full of so-called 'occult phenomena'. The term 'Out of Body Experience' comes from Paul's Second Epistle to the Corinthians, all the Prophetic Books of the Old Testament and the Book of Revelations are themselves derived from visions. If you read commentaries by figures such as Rabbi Moses Maimonides or Rabbi Chaim Vital you will find frank and open discussion about how the Prophets achieved the heightened states of Consciousness with which to Commune with God.<BR/><BR/>Similarly the phenomena of Speaking In Tongues in Acts, the instructions given to Moses and Aaron by God for how to invoke him, the rituals of Solomon in the Second Book of Samuel to commune with God and the use of the expression 'through the glass darkly' all speak of what Paul himself openly calls 'the hidden wisdom'.<BR/><BR/>Remember that the Apostles advise their followers to test all Spirits to find if they are 'of God'. 'Occult' just means 'Hidden' as in 'Esoteric'. Its negative, Satanic, Pagan connotations are recent and largely to do with the tomfoolery of people like Aleister Crowley. Meditative techniques used to commune with God are not Pagan, necessarily, unless one calls people like the Hesychast Monks of Mount Athos Pagans, for instance, or the Mevlevi Sect of Islam Pagans etc.<BR/><BR/>Jung had a very high regard for Christianity and especially Christ as the embodiment, along with Buddha, of Perfection. What concerned him, though, was the anti-holistic tendency of the Church he viewed as suppressing whole areas of the Psyche and human experience - eg the feminine, sexuality etc. His interest in other cultures and pre-Christian ones was in order to shed light on the Christian vision, what its origins were and how it had evolved. In terms of the Goddess you mention, for instance, his interest was primarily focussed on the Sophia, which is an energy found in Christianity anyway. He hoped - and I fail to see how this is a BAD thing - that through the image of the Sophia the Christian Trinity could be made whole, thus enabling femininity to be integrated into the Godhead.<BR/><BR/>As for the issue of Evil and the Devil, one has to understand quite what he meant by this. He didn't suggest that rape, murder etc should be celebrated and integrated. Jung was an anti-dualist. His hope was for an integrated vision of Christ. His concept of the Devil as Shadow was a result of what he saw as the dangerous dualism inherent in mainstream Christianity which placed a great deal of energy into a category marked 'evil' eg sexuality for instance. His warning was that, unless this suppressed reservoir of energy was not integrated it would, quite literally, express itself as Evil, whether through the Christian or post-Christian psyche.<BR/><BR/>If one looks at the history of violence committed in the name of Christ down through the centuries, one might be able to see what he was getting at. How could a religion committed to the beauty, gentleness and humanity of Christ perpretrate the Inquisition, for instance? Or justify the slave trade? Or persecute the Jews? Or found Apartheid? Or treat women as second class citizens? All these historic events which received scriptural defence and underpinning from their perpretors, Jung would have argued, were subconscious expressions of the Shadow, the denial of which meant that it could express itself in this way without troubling the Consciences of the prepetrators. All were diametrically opposed to what Christ taught, stood for and died for. And yet these people called themselves Christians. Had they looked within a little more, they may have found Christ there suggesting they weren't doing the right thing!<BR/><BR/>From an objective position, I would characterise the Inquisition as Evil, and yet it was perpretrated by people who believed they were fighting Evil and strove to have no Evil in them. Jung would have argued that this was a result of the dualism inherent in maintstream Christian thinking. Christ said 'By their fruits shall ye know them'. By any standard, things like the Inquisition and the Slave Trade were pretty bad fruits. Something was seriously wrong and, to be frank, Jung's search for what that was should be lauded and not decried. <BR/><BR/>Interestingly, the term Holy is etymologically linked to the word Holistic, meaning Wholeness. Similarly, the word Saviour is derived from the Greek Soter which also means Healer. Christ as Healer and the guide to Wholeness/Holiness is what Jung was trying to get at, it seems to me. <BR/><BR/>Since the God Within and the Oneness between Man and God was one of the main themes of Christ and finds expression in Eastern Orthodox, Franciscan and Mystical Christianity as well as in some of the greatest Christian thinkers such as Meister Eckhardt, St Augustine and Origen, I don't see how it can be described as an anti-Christian doctrine. Also, I don't agree that Jung's interest in 'the God Within' was exclusive 'the God Without'. Jung was interested in Man as the Imago Dei - ie fashioned in the Image of God of which Christ was the clearest expression. How then could his view be described as other than the God Within interacting with the God Without?<BR/><BR/>Indeed, how could a man who, as is quoted here, claimed he did not believe in God but KNEW God NOT exist in the awareness of 'the God Without'?<BR/><BR/>Watered down, New Agey, Hippie versions of Jung are one thing, Jung's ACTUAL standpoint is another. People who claim to be 'Jungian' are often not motivated by any of the goals Jung worked for. Its my belief that Jung was DEEPLY Christian, indeed he admits as much in his memoirs. What he didn't do was unquestioningly accept Institutional Christianity and its interpretations. 'Jungians' describes a variety of people and viewpoint as diverse as 'Christians'. How many Christians do you know who ACTUALLY lead a Christian life and realise what Paul's 'Christ in you'? Probably as many as actually practise a genuinely 'Jungian' interpretation to Jung's writings...Pegasushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12122356371487253798noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14410967.post-37854026159608206932008-08-05T23:00:00.000-06:002008-08-05T23:00:00.000-06:00You characterize your self through your subjective...You characterize your self through your subjective nature, Christianity should not be threatened by the thoughts of Carl Jung and to emphasize his blasphemy is a logical fallacy as it is not your job to convince or convict the ignorant. As in all cases ignorance is chosen, and true epiphany, is the only catalyst to intelligible blissfulness, and righteousness, by pressing the idea you only give rise to the other, in turn inflaming the argument. Likely someone who is characterized and clichéd by the masses will agree with the "new" age, as well as a man characterized by faith in Christ will give credence to the church. But remember, (as I say subjectively), who He is. If you know all of this than teach accordingly, rather than explaining. Furthermore, we also have to recognize as it has always been and always will, a few smart people rule the dumb masses. It's really a question of Soul or Ego.JarodMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16867716916703693537noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14410967.post-71081892369615002432008-06-23T21:25:00.000-06:002008-06-23T21:25:00.000-06:00the crisis between hinduism and christ as been fro...the crisis between hinduism and christ as been from long time... but in these age where people are very clear about the views ... where christians are rising there is no matter of talking about this.. everybody knows...<BR/>=============================<BR/><BR/>raven<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://www.christian-drug-rehab.org" REL="nofollow">Christian Drug Rehab</A>ravenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02413552691630860610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14410967.post-27861732694495278202007-09-02T09:35:00.000-06:002007-09-02T09:35:00.000-06:00Hello. I read your paper with interest, although I...Hello. I read your paper with interest, although I knew from the start that it would present a view point far from neutral, as you do seem to have something you must protect for yourself and your peers; so is "apostolic necessity". <BR/><BR/>I was raised a Catholic and now that I gave away all that I know how much these outer convictions belittled my inner life and thwarted my growth. That is, of course, my personal view, for my own personal use.<BR/><BR/>I regret that the lack of information on Jung, furthermore fogged by those who write about him without having understood but half of his ideas, lead people to believe that New Age and Sabbaths and etc. have to do with him. That too is simple-minded.<BR/><BR/>Definitely one of the main ideas in Jung is that in order to be religious and spiritual you don't need the little wheels of established religions (even minority, informal ones), or you will never be yourself before God, nor will you ever be responsible; or, that you can't be religious by proxy. Just be reponsibly you, that's difficult enough.<BR/><BR/>That is, in fact, the problem for which <I>"nulla salvatione sine ecclesia"</I> was written by political thinkers far from God, and the reason for your paper (again, in my viewpoint).<BR/><BR/>Best regards.Bacohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15042370917078008422noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14410967.post-49856437180607946812007-04-18T10:53:00.000-06:002007-04-18T10:53:00.000-06:00Thank you for this short but in depth analysis on ...Thank you for this short but in depth analysis on this (unseen to the naked eye) pervasive attack on Christianity and our culture. I went to a Christian retreat recently with Sabbath as the theme and something didn't "smell" right. I later complained of what I called the New Age feel to the program. I was told that my ideas were unfounded. In the response to my complaint I was told that the retreat was based in part on a "wonderful" book called The Re-Enchantment of Everyday Life. This led to my research on the author, Thomas Moore and eventually <BR/>to your Blog. As a new pastor I was critisized for not having enough experience. After all, it was all scriptual. As a new pastor, I am wondering why the long time pastors didn't have more spiritual discernment. I knew absolutely nothing about Jungian philosophy, but explained that I would not take New Age concepts and wrap them in paper that said Jesus. I do know Deuteronomy 18 and you (as well as other sites) have enlightened me somewhat on Jung. I was very surprised to see the bizarre occultic influence in his life and in his work! Why didn't they tell us this in Psyche 101?! May God richly bless your work and your ministry.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14410967.post-1159852962301761602006-10-02T23:22:00.000-06:002006-10-02T23:22:00.000-06:00I agree with Jung that the Devil completes the Qua...I agree with Jung that the Devil completes the Quaternity. It was Christ who said,"I have come to bring fire on earth" (Luke 12.49). <BR/>The Hindu Trimurti includes the Devil in its Trinity, in the form of Shiva the Destroyer; but, unfortunately, leaves out the Son, Krishna. Humanity is still stuck in 3 dimensional duality, and needs to move towards wholeness, Oneness, or completion, i.e. Quaternity.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11700067602454002044noreply@blogger.com