tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14410967.post113790135162808768..comments2024-03-25T19:00:40.046-06:00Comments on The Constructive Curmudgeon: Football, Baseball, and the Culture of ViolenceDouglas Groothuis, Ph.D.http://www.blogger.com/profile/08766692378954258034noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14410967.post-1138848456523154612006-02-01T19:47:00.000-07:002006-02-01T19:47:00.000-07:00An interesting argument. Your strongest point see...An interesting argument. Your strongest point seems to be on the inherent violence of football. Yet that is exactly it's virtue. Football is one of our culture's ways of doing what all culture's must do- finding a way to harness our desire for violence and competition in a socially-acceptable form. Perhaps a philosopher can live a passive life of reading and conversation but most men seek outlets that are more active, competitive, risky and (to some degree) violent than baseball or golf or stamp collecting. <BR/><BR/> As culture seeks to emasculate little boys by eliminating dodgeball and substituting girlie-type co-operative games where "everyone is a winner," we should be seeking to preserve reasonable outlets (like hunting and hockey and paintball and football) for the testosterone gender to express their active natures. Suppression is not the answer, channelling is.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03005991035403310706noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14410967.post-1138331970243482532006-01-26T20:19:00.000-07:002006-01-26T20:19:00.000-07:00Dr. G,hard to believe, but my more detailed refuta...Dr. G,<BR/><BR/>hard to believe, but my more detailed refutation is coming shortly. However, as a quick response to this last point by you:<BR/><BR/>1. I was not claiming that football players bodies go through more or less damage than baseball players. Nor was I claiming that football is somehow less physically impacting on players bodies. There can be no doubt whatsoever that football is inherently more physical on its players -- to such an extent, in fact, that (as you and apparently Jedd mention) professional football players careers aren't too long -- their bodies just can't take it.<BR/><BR/>2. What I WAS claiming was that football players do not as a rule intentionally set out to hurt one another. There may be exceptions, but intentionally injuring another player is by no means the norm of the game (just like it is not in baseball).<BR/><BR/>3. You were trying originally to make the claim that football players (as a point of difference from baseball) intentionally try to hurt other players. I was simply countering THIS claim. Just like in baseball (i.e. the Koufax example I gave), yes there are exceptions. But overall, football players do not intentionally try to injure one another -- hence this is not a significant point of difference between baseball and football.<BR/><BR/>The fact that football has many more injuries than baseball, as a by-product of its formal aspects, I cannot dispute. And THIS (the discrepancy on the toll on the human body) IS a significant difference between the sports. But I never was disputing that -- I was merely disputing your claim regarding intentionality of injuring other players as a point of difference. <BR/><BR/>More to come.BJShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05326277125704522469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14410967.post-1138253758723960582006-01-25T22:35:00.000-07:002006-01-25T22:35:00.000-07:00The curmudgeon infection is highly contagious--if ...The curmudgeon infection is highly contagious--if properly incubated.Douglas Groothuis, Ph.D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/08766692378954258034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14410967.post-1138159566415962942006-01-24T20:26:00.000-07:002006-01-24T20:26:00.000-07:00I feel the love!I was specifically arguing your pr...I feel the love!<BR/><BR/>I was specifically arguing your premises that baseball demands more intelligence, football players try to hurt each other on purpose (as if this were the norm), and that baseball has more time for reflection. I too, am resolute... I disagree!<BR/><BR/>BUT: you have stirred other thoughts for the first time in my 30+ years of being a fan about aspects of football that are in fact bad. I've thought a lot about it the last couple of days, and the damage it does to the human body is bad. I agree. I've also thought a lot about about how much fans of ALL professional sports invest in their teams. Emotionally, financially, and temporally. Our values are askew! I shared these thoughts with two different people on plane rides today (who had sports team hats on), and by the end of the conversation they agreed... althought they must have thought me a 'curmudgeon'. Look what you've done Dr. G! :-)Craig Fletcherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04732332673826674158noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14410967.post-1138080644477408012006-01-23T22:30:00.000-07:002006-01-23T22:30:00.000-07:00Tornado and Craig:You know I love you guys, but......Tornado and Craig:<BR/><BR/>You know I love you guys, but...<BR/><BR/>1. Baseball is not boring if you understand the game and the teams are skilled.<BR/><BR/>2. I am against players sharpening spikes, throwing pitches at batters, and so on. You do not need to engage in this violence (or the threat of it) to play baseball.<BR/><BR/>3. The fact is, Tornado, that the average "career" in the NFL is something like less than five years. After that, their bodies are dead meat. Moreover, Jedd M. (whom you know) tells me there is a new book out charting the lives of NFL players after retirement. Most are physical wrecks. Pretty boy quarterbacks (who start the play running backwards most cases) are less pummelled than other positions. They are the exception, not the rule.<BR/><BR/>I am resolute. Football is bad.Douglas Groothuis, Ph.D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/08766692378954258034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14410967.post-1138070858879393502006-01-23T19:47:00.000-07:002006-01-23T19:47:00.000-07:00What I am trying to illustrate, is that being a pr...What I am trying to illustrate, is that being a professional football player in certain positions (most of them), is intensely cerebral. It is complex, and to master this complexity requires tireless study. The more intelligent players are oftentimes much more effective in their ability to read the opposing team, call the right plays, and make split-second decisions. As a Quarterback or defensive captain, you are strategically directing all of your players on your team simeltaneously. The more intelligent (or the ones who study more - usually both) leaders on teams are the ones who are the captains - and they demonstrate noticeable intelligent in the midst of a very complex game.<BR/><BR/>Plus, baseball is boring! (I know, a premise with no arguments. It's just my opinion):-)Craig Fletcherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04732332673826674158noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14410967.post-1138066041154639112006-01-23T18:27:00.000-07:002006-01-23T18:27:00.000-07:00OK Dr. G, my big detailed refutation is still on t...OK Dr. G, my big detailed refutation is still on the way... but I have to quickly jump in here on point 3 you just made.<BR/><BR/>This is just not true as tendancy across the sport. Perhaps you knew one warped individual player who did try to hurt other people (even his own teammates!), but he was the exception not the norm. I'll get into much more detail on this in my refutation, but football is about the highly CONTROLLED use of force, not uncontrolled violence intended for injury. <BR/><BR/>You can easily cite a couple players who are outliers on this point, but the same could be said of baseball (Sandy Koufax sharpened his spikes so that when he slide into second he would break the SS's ankle. There are some pitchers who intentionally try to injury other players, etc.). Those are exceptions in baseball not a rule of the formal aspect of the sport, and the same is true in football. <BR/><BR/>Football players do NOT intentionally try to injure other players. I must agree with Craig: to make an assertion that football players try to hurt one another demonstrates a lack of knowledge of the game of football.<BR/><BR/>Much more to come. :)<BR/>-Tornado.BJShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05326277125704522469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14410967.post-1137907456430557562006-01-21T22:24:00.000-07:002006-01-21T22:24:00.000-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Douglas Groothuis, Ph.D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/08766692378954258034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14410967.post-1138062869962033342006-01-23T17:34:00.000-07:002006-01-23T17:34:00.000-07:00Some responses:1. Yes to Susan!2. I don't "watch" ...Some responses:<BR/><BR/>1. Yes to Susan!<BR/><BR/>2. I don't "watch" baseball on the infernal device anymore, as I said in the essay.<BR/><BR/>3. To Craig: complexity is not the same as intelligence. Football player do try to hurt each other. I knew an NFL guy who said they tried to take each other out in training so they could secure a position.What they say in front of a TV camera is another matter!Douglas Groothuis, Ph.D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/08766692378954258034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14410967.post-1138058250841356852006-01-23T16:17:00.000-07:002006-01-23T16:17:00.000-07:00Dr. Groothuis: You know I consider you an intellec...Dr. Groothuis: You know I consider you an intellectual dynamo, but in this case I disagree with some of our premises. There are many good points in your essay that have caused me to stop and think things through regarding my love of football, but I must certainly refute one of them where you wrote "Baseball is intellectually superior to football, because of the degree of strategy, finesse, and intelligence required to play it well. Football knows of many plays and patterns, but most of them reduce to speed, strength, and coordination--as opposed to intelligence". <BR/><BR/>For one to say such a thing illustrates a lack of knowledge regarding the game of football. The complexity of football is far greater in my opinion. Have you ever listened to an NFL coach call a play? It's madness. Each play call is a slew of commands that almost sounds like a foreign language, in which all 11 players are given specific instructions. For example, he might call "double X right slot zoom 88 bravo strong left 27 I-left alpha fade triple Z". I made this one up, but it is similar to real play calls. All of these commands mean something to the players on the field, and all eleven of them have to try to execute their job during the play to perfection in order for the play to be effective.... and these things are being done concurrently by 11 people (not true in baseball. In baseball, several plays can go by where half of the players do nothing at all because the ball did not come their way). So you take that, coupled with the fact that the coaches and players have studied the opposing team's tendencies before they even design these plays to counter the opposing team's strengths, weaknesses, and tendencies. Additionally, when the quarterback comes up to the line he "reads" the defensive formation. If he sees that the opposing defense is in a formation that does not favor the play call, he "audibilizes". Audibilizing is a fine art. It involves reading the defense, and changing the play call at the line of scrimmage. This requires that all players on the field have an intimate knowledge of their team's playbook. It is said that in many systems (teams), it takes a quarterback several years to learn the system effectively before they can audibilize effectively... or even execute the original play call for that manner. The quarterback needs to know what everyone on the field is doing on every play so that he can react and make good decisions.<BR/><BR/>I could cite many more examples, but I hope you see my point: Football is at least as intellectual as baseball, and in my opinion much more so. This is why I love the game. The violence is a downside, but the strategy is very intense and enjoyable. Also, there is indeed time for reflection. There is a 30-45 second delay between plays during which time the coaches are scheming their next call. There are also coaches "up top" looking down over the field with better views of the opposing teams' formations as well.<BR/><BR/>One more thing: You will be hard pressed to find players who intentionally want to hurt other players. Almost without exception, every time you see someone get hurt and the player who caused the injury is interviewed, there is obvious remorse. This happens on the playing field, and during post game interviews. The goal is to stop the opposing player from executing the play, not to hurt them.Craig Fletcherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04732332673826674158noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14410967.post-1138046183306197792006-01-23T12:56:00.000-07:002006-01-23T12:56:00.000-07:00and, I must add, all your premises at arriving to ...and, I must add, all your premises at arriving to that conclusion.Ted M. Gossardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10580691315315271791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14410967.post-1138046118830756642006-01-23T12:55:00.000-07:002006-01-23T12:55:00.000-07:00I would like to add one other thing here.I think g...I would like to add one other thing here.<BR/><BR/>I think grace figures in for us all. Otherwise we would all come short. We need grace every moment.<BR/><BR/>And I think that grace enables us to critique where we're at, and grow in conformity to Christ.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the thoughts, even if I don't side 100% with especially your conclusion.Ted M. Gossardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10580691315315271791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14410967.post-1138038105324941682006-01-23T10:41:00.000-07:002006-01-23T10:41:00.000-07:00That being said, for whatever reason I like footba...That being said, for whatever reason I like football best. It is the big sport in Ohio, where I'm from. Maybe that's why. Shorter seaons. Less games. Too.Ted M. Gossardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10580691315315271791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14410967.post-1138038037070231682006-01-23T10:40:00.000-07:002006-01-23T10:40:00.000-07:00I would prefer either baseball or soccer to Amerca...I would prefer either baseball or soccer to Amercan football. Or basketball for that matter.<BR/><BR/>I would like it if football was more of the "flag football" variety. Though I don't know the rules to that entirely.<BR/><BR/>So I can see what you're saying. I cringe at vicious hits in football.Ted M. Gossardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10580691315315271791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14410967.post-1138025781235906392006-01-23T07:16:00.000-07:002006-01-23T07:16:00.000-07:00All that you say is true, and yet football is stil...All that you say is true, and yet football is still much more fun to play and watch than baseball!Adam Omelianchukhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02962074536479488859noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14410967.post-1138025688320661902006-01-23T07:14:00.000-07:002006-01-23T07:14:00.000-07:00You forgot the most important way in which basebal...You forgot the most important way in which baseball is superior to football - it's orders of magnitude more boring, and therefore much less likely to entice me to waste my time watching it. I am surprised the good doctor would have a kind word to say about watching any sport (usually said activity involves the anathematized far-seeing device).Jeff Burtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18068021849429001560noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14410967.post-1137973822503760912006-01-22T16:50:00.000-07:002006-01-22T16:50:00.000-07:00Well,since the Broncos failed today, I suppose I w...Well,<BR/><BR/>since the Broncos failed today, I suppose I will as well: I will not get my refutation of your position finished tonight, I'm afraid. (The realization that I still have a Plato paper to finish that is due tomorrow morning also might have had a factor in my decision to put off finishing the response).<BR/><BR/>But fear not -- the refutation will come soon and Dr. G. will be proven wrong (...on this point at least). <BR/><BR/>Tornado.BJShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05326277125704522469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14410967.post-1137951156698084542006-01-22T10:32:00.000-07:002006-01-22T10:32:00.000-07:00Dr. Groothuis,I love your essay here on football a...Dr. Groothuis,<BR/><BR/>I love your essay here on football and baseball. I found it profoundly interesting and unique in its points.<BR/><BR/>I often get criticism from people because I am a Christian whose favorite sport is actually Mixed Martial Arts (also called "Ultimate Fighting"--the Ultimate Fighting Championships).<BR/><BR/>I realize you dislike football largely because of its violent elements. I'd be interested to see your comments on Mixed Martials Arts on this. But recently I heard Gary Habermas talking on a radio show and he briefly addressed the Apostle Paul. Habermas made the interesting point that Paul was most probably an athletic, physically gifted man. He often used athletic allusions in his writings and himself was able to endure the harshest physical strife. Habermas noted that Paul mostly alluded to boxing and track & field in his letters, and thus was seemingly a fan of such events.<BR/><BR/>This is interesting in regards to your comments on the violence of football (and the comments of others on the violence of Mixed Martial Arts). For if Paul did not find boxing to be unChristian (he spoke of it even after his conversion), why would football or Ultimate Fighting be considered incompatible with Christianity?<BR/><BR/>I just thought this was an interesting tidbit to think about in regards to your essay.R. Chapmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17685191286012776830noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14410967.post-1137935535259948672006-01-22T06:12:00.000-07:002006-01-22T06:12:00.000-07:00From the time I was a young child, my dad took me ...From the time I was a young child, my dad took me to baseball games, and we still go today. It is quite easy to imagine the difference in impact on my character in those early years particularly, had my father taken me to football games instead. Baseball is an alltogether different sport, rich with traditions and values that go back to the beginning of the game in America. It has always been a sport that promotes good manners, equity, fairness, and no-harm. I do not, however, purchase team-logo laden paraphernalia, or disparage those who "root" for teams outside of Colorado. I find that baseball fans, overall, have a more friendly and more healthy attitude toward competition in baseball. A baseball aficionado is typically a much more jovial individual regarding "the other team" than is a football fan (though I have seen bad form in the stadium at baseball games. Usually this is sternly corrected by those seated nearby, reminding the offending spectator that "we dont do that in baseball, sir!")<BR/><BR/>I have, in the days when I worked on TV crews for sporting events, been to football, soccer, and basketball games. Football's constraint to "the clock" is rediculously driven by the broadcast of the game and the commercials that "must" be aired. Behind-the-scenes, you would not believe how tense it can get! The volence and bad-manners extends even into the TV control room.Susanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10946914786780646364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14410967.post-1137907131804171572006-01-21T22:18:00.000-07:002006-01-21T22:18:00.000-07:00Dr. G,I am drafting a response to your argument he...Dr. G,<BR/><BR/>I am drafting a response to your argument here for the superiority of baseball. I will address, point by point, why I find your argument fails. I am letting you know that I am preparing this refutation only as a teaser -- for I plan on finishing my refutation of your claim tomorrow as I watch the AFC and NFC Championship football games. Yes, I am doing this primarly for dramatic effect. Also, perhaps as I watch the beauty of the sport as I work on my response, I will be hit with even more insights. Presently, I am quite confident I can soundly refute your claim. Stay tuned. <BR/><BR/>Oh, and unlike baseball and like football, I will put myself on a clock: I will have my refutation of your argument posted by the expiration of the final quarter of the NFC Championship game tomorrow night (Sunday).<BR/><BR/>Blessings,<BR/>-BJBJShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05326277125704522469noreply@blogger.com